Daemon's Advocate article

[j***@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org]

http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200402/dadvocate.html

I found the article very interesting.

What do you all think? What is being done to keep BSD from ending up where
Greg says it might be going - suitable only for developers?

I would think that with more people and ports being added every day, we
won't find ourselves in that situation. However, I can see what he is
talking about.

NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks.

jm

[k***@gwdg.de]

Post by j***@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org
http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200402/dadvocate.html
I found the article very interesting.
What do you all think? What is being done to keep BSD from ending up where
Greg says it might be going - suitable only for developers?
I would think that with more people and ports being added every day, we
won't find ourselves in that situation. However, I can see what he is
talking about.
NOTE: Please CC me, as I am not currently subscribed. Thanks.

I see the problem too. For example, I run a couple of FreeBSD driven
servers in our computer center. They do their job very well, but the
number of (SuSE and RedHat) Linux boxes is substantially higher.

Why? I think there are some reasons at least:

* Linux is more popular. I try to tell people that FreeBSD is great
whenever there is a chance to do so, but they do hesitate since they all
know (at less) a handful of people using Linux happily.

* Installation and maintenance of SuSE or RedHat Linux is more convenient
or is assumed to be so. People hardly believe the patching and updating
an operating system by source code is easy and painless. Nevertheless,
it is, I know, but how to get other people to try it?

* People are lazy. For example, SuSE offers low-charge maintenance
contracts. As long as this fits people's needs, noone wants to fix
security holes by him/-herself.

I'm talking about people who work in a computer center. I don't talk of
newbies. I'm talking of people who once said "hey, open source is great",
but now they use commercial Linux systems being lightyears away from Linux
as it was some years ago.

Only the very very few ones regretting that Linux has gone this way and
really liking open source will give FreeBSD a chance.

I think most people don't run operating systems because they like them so
much (I do with FreeBSD) but because they need a task to be done. So we
should ask what we can do here?

Best regards

Konrad Heuer (***@gwdg.de) ____ ___ _______
GWDG / __/______ ___ / _ )/ __/ _ \
Am Fassberg / _// __/ -_) -_) _ |\ \/ // /
37077 Goettingen /_/ /_/ \__/\__/____/___/____/
Germany

[m***@adept.org]

Post by k***@gwdg.de
Only the very very few ones regretting that Linux has gone this way and
really liking open source will give FreeBSD a chance.

i regret where linux has gone, at least distros like RH. but you are
correct, a lot of datacenters are filled with RH instead of *BSD. some of
it's application support, but with emulation as it is, a lot of it is just
hype. i love the simplicity (buildworld isn't hard) of FreeBSD and the
control that it gives you. it is stable, fast, etc... but i guess we get
back to the old "VHS vs. Betamax" debate. people often choose inferior
technology with their pocketbooks -- something very frustrating as an
engineer.

-m

[v***@interfree.it]

---- Original Message ----
From: "Mike Hoskins" <***@adept.org>
To: <***@freebsd.org>
Sent: Monday, 01 March, 2004 08:38
Subject: Re: Daemon's Advocate article

Post by m***@adept.org

Post by k***@gwdg.de
Only the very very few ones regretting that Linux has gone this way and
really liking open source will give FreeBSD a chance.

i regret where linux has gone, at least distros like RH. but you are
correct, a lot of datacenters are filled with RH instead of *BSD. some of
it's application support, but with emulation as it is, a lot of it is just
hype. i love the simplicity (buildworld isn't hard) of FreeBSD and the
control that it gives you. it is stable, fast, etc... but i guess we get
back to the old "VHS vs. Betamax" debate. people often choose inferior
technology with their pocketbooks -- something very frustrating as an
engineer.
-m

What I miss, as an end user, is only a VMWare release making FreeBSD the
hosting o.s.

.VWV.

[D***@Siemens.com]

Post by j***@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org
http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200402/dadvocate.html
I found the article very interesting.
What do you all think? What is being done to keep BSD from ending up
where Greg says it might be going - suitable only for developers?

What is being done? Nothing. I get the impression that no one "in
charge" is the slightest bit concerned about the FreeBSD user. This is
most notable on the desktop side, but it extends to any user. There's
this attitude that if you want something in FreeBSD, you must do it
yourself.

But why should it be any other way? FreeBSD developers are all
volunteers. They work on what they do because that's what they want to
do. And since they're all primarily kernel and system software people,
we end up with a great OS, but a rather lackluster environment.

The lack of commercialization doesn't help either. I think this is the
only long term advantage Linux has over the BSDs. Who pays people to
work on the boring and dreary stuff? Who pays for that new piece of
hardware so a driver can be written sometime before it becomes
obsolete? (I think this situation will turn around as FreeBSD gains
users and becomes noticed by hardware vendors, just like what happened
to Linux about four years ago).

I'm a desktop user. I have noticed more than once some active disdain
towards the desktop by FreeBSD developers. Why is this? Did I miss the
sign out front saying "servers only"? You don't have to be a
dumb-downed system like Lindows to be suitable for the desktop.

David

[s***@sremick.net]

Post by D***@Siemens.com
I'm a desktop user. I have noticed more than once some active disdain
towards the desktop by FreeBSD developers. Why is this? Did I miss the
sign out front saying "servers only"? You don't have to be a
dumb-downed system like Lindows to be suitable for the desktop.

I have to concur. For some reason, there seems to be a common attitude that
if you use FreeBSD to any extent, you must be a C++ programmer with the
ability to write drivers and patch applications. While I fully respect the
fact that this is a volunteer effort, the above can come off as rather harsh
and deterring for a new user. We FreeBSD users often scold the Linux
community for their attitude problems... why must we replace one bad
attitude with another in our own community?

The people who volunteer their free time for the good of the FreeBSD
community can do a lot of things in their sleep which are beyond the
abilities of the common desktop user. Perhaps some have some free time,
perhaps others find a request simple enough that they can balance their time
to handle something that would help someone else. But to make a polite
request and get back "Why don't you port it yourself if you want it?" or
"patch/driver submissions welcome" conveys an impression that FreeBSD is for
developers only... if you can't code, your input isn't desired.

I know it's all volunteer, and I volunteer my time and efforts in the ways I
can despite not being a C++ coder. Nor have I graduated to the point where I
can port applications (although I will be willing to attempt it once I can
have an additional test PC environment where I can risk experimenting with
apps not in the ports tree). But I field a lot of new-user questions, have
gotten several people up and going who turn to me first with questions, I
run an advocacy/news/help site, and so on. We all help as we can.

I'm sorry to see Greg leave. I own his book and found it very useful.

[g***@freebsd.org]

--hTiIB9CRvBOLTyqY
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Post by s***@sremick.net

Post by D***@Siemens.com
I'm a desktop user. I have noticed more than once some active disdain
towards the desktop by FreeBSD developers. Why is this? Did I miss the
sign out front saying "servers only"? You don't have to be a
dumb-downed system like Lindows to be suitable for the desktop.

I have to concur. For some reason, there seems to be a common attitude that
if you use FreeBSD to any extent, you must be a C++ programmer with the
ability to write drivers and patch applications. While I fully respect the
fact that this is a volunteer effort, the above can come off as rather harsh
and deterring for a new user. We FreeBSD users often scold the Linux
community for their attitude problems... why must we replace one bad
attitude with another in our own community?
The people who volunteer their free time for the good of the FreeBSD
community can do a lot of things in their sleep which are beyond the
abilities of the common desktop user. Perhaps some have some free time,
perhaps others find a request simple enough that they can balance their time
to handle something that would help someone else. But to make a polite
request and get back "Why don't you port it yourself if you want it?" or
"patch/driver submissions welcome" conveys an impression that FreeBSD is for
developers only... if you can't code, your input isn't desired.

Yes, this attitude gets on my nerves too.

Post by s***@sremick.net
I'm sorry to see Greg leave. I own his book and found it very useful.

I'm not leaving: I'm still here. I've just left the core team.

Greg
--
Note: I discard all HTML mail unseen.
Finger ***@FreeBSD.org for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.

--hTiIB9CRvBOLTyqY
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Content-Disposition: inline

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Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD)

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--hTiIB9CRvBOLTyqY--

[n***@haldjas.folklore.ee]

Post by s***@sremick.net

Post by D***@Siemens.com
I'm a desktop user. I have noticed more than once some active disdain
towards the desktop by FreeBSD developers. Why is this? Did I miss the
sign out front saying "servers only"? You don't have to be a
dumb-downed system like Lindows to be suitable for the desktop.

I have to concur. For some reason, there seems to be a common attitude that
if you use FreeBSD to any extent, you must be a C++ programmer with the
ability to write drivers and patch applications. While I fully respect the
fact that this is a volunteer effort, the above can come off as rather harsh
and deterring for a new user. We FreeBSD users often scold the Linux
community for their attitude problems... why must we replace one bad
attitude with another in our own community?

The attitude towards "FreeBSD on desktop" used to be *REALLY* bad. Up to
and including core(*1) members saying that FreeBSD on desktop was
pointless and servers are the only direction. Its reasonable now even if
not exactly embracing. Which is a pity - peopel don't seem to draw a
connection between developers choice of desktops to servers getting
installed.

Post by s***@sremick.net
The people who volunteer their free time for the good of the FreeBSD
community can do a lot of things in their sleep which are beyond the
abilities of the common desktop user. Perhaps some have some free time,

yes, but... I'd rather not be at a sever disadvantage because I use
freebsd on desktop instead of using linux.

Post by s***@sremick.net
perhaps others find a request simple enough that they can balance their time
to handle something that would help someone else. But to make a polite
request and get back "Why don't you port it yourself if you want it?" or
"patch/driver submissions welcome" conveys an impression that FreeBSD is for
developers only... if you can't code, your input isn't desired.
I know it's all volunteer, and I volunteer my time and efforts in the ways I
can despite not being a C++ coder. Nor have I graduated to the point where I
can port applications (although I will be willing to attempt it once I can
have an additional test PC environment where I can risk experimenting with
apps not in the ports tree). But I field a lot of new-user questions, have
gotten several people up and going who turn to me first with questions, I
run an advocacy/news/help site, and so on. We all help as we can.
I'm sorry to see Greg leave. I own his book and found it very useful.

Definitely - I have seen him do tons of very important stuff, I hope he
does stay around.

(*1) This is the old-old, unlected core i'm talking about

[l***@markemmanuel.org]

I agree. I wish people will see that connection between desktops and
servers.

I'm not a developer, programmer, or anyone six feet deep in the
computing industry. Here are some experiences I have. I used MacOS X
and heard there were BSD parts in it so I joined the lists. FreeBSD
doesn't have a working PPC port so I went to NetBSD so I can install
NetBSD on an unused iMac. My brother is an EE student at IIT. Most of
his classes uses Windows based programs so he uses Windows on his
personal computer. He's interested in setting up a webserver in his
dorm room. He just built a new computer for his workstation so he can
do homework faster and play games and using his old machine as a
server. Guess what he's considering for his server? He pokes fun at
me because I can't play cool games and it takes me forever to get this
fileserver at home going on NetBSD because I'm not used to using a *NIX
computer. I played around with Linux on a PowerMac 6100 and didn't
like the install experience as I was a newbie user. No graphic
interface or anything. I wanted to learn *Nix but I wanted gradually
get into it. I got turned off. Recently, I saw some of the new Linux
distros and found them to be really nice. I don't need them now since
I'm using MacOS X usually and mess around with its guts using Terminal.
My friend uses Linux. We share webspace over at a company that's
known to use FreeBSD. He's moving to another server leaving me to find
a new internet room mate. The company serving his files uses Linux.
My brother makes fun of Linux users because every one he knows has had
problems with Linux keeping track of time.

Long story short... There's a connnection between those who use it on
the desktop first and those who use the desktop later. I personally
would love to see two flavors floating around and marketed. A set of
CDs or DVD that has the GUI as default and one that uses a TUI. I'd
also like to see updated drivers for all the BSDs and a major company
deciding to back the BSDs and openly advocate them. MacOSX has some
text saying that parts of the OS was derived from BSD BUT it's in
really smnall text and it feels like Apple is trying to align
themselves with the Linux crowd. If I had a company, I'd push BSD in
some way, have a default and standard GUI for the everyday user and to
lower tech support costs, increase BSD advocacy, hire some people
involved with BSD so they can spend time on BSD and get paid, and many
other things. Now, how to build a profitable company and pursue these
ideas? I don't know. Maybe I can become yet another box builder and
ship each computer with an uninstalled copy of FreeBSD and a pamplet
about it. I'd love to see some native games on FreeBSD.

Sorry for my rambling.

Post by n***@haldjas.folklore.ee
The attitude towards "FreeBSD on desktop" used to be *REALLY* bad. Up to
and including core(*1) members saying that FreeBSD on desktop was
pointless and servers are the only direction. Its reasonable now even if
not exactly embracing. Which is a pity - peopel don't seem to draw a
connection between developers choice of desktops to servers getting
installed.

--markemmanuel
___________________t_h_e_w_o_l_f_p_u_p_._c_o_m_.
Markemmanuel F. Rodriguez
http://www.thewolfpup.com/
________________________________________________________.

[n***@haldjas.folklore.ee]

On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:09:33 -0800

Post by D***@Siemens.com

Post by j***@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org
http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200402/dadvocate.html
I found the article very interesting.
What do you all think? What is being done to keep BSD from ending
up where Greg says it might be going - suitable only for
developers?

What is being done? Nothing. I get the impression that no one "in
charge" is the slightest bit concerned about the FreeBSD user. This
is most notable on the desktop side, but it extends to any user.
There's this attitude that if you want something in FreeBSD, you
must do it yourself.

:/ The big problem is there is needed a desktop distro... and a good
gtk+ front end to the ports, rc.conf, and sysctl.

+1